VER Podcast w/ Founder Fred Martins

Speaker 1 (00:00):

All the reels to speed. All right, here we go. Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of the Alliance Group podcast. And our guest today is Mr. Frederico Martins a wonderful friend of Alliance Group. Fred is the CEO of Second Chance Financial and Executive Vice President Five Rings Financial. And what we're going to be talking about today is his role as the c e o and Co-founder of Volunteer Emergency Relief, otherwise known as V E r. Fred, thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker 2 (00:29):

You're welcome. Pleasure to be

Speaker 1 (00:30):

Here. Absolutely. It's wonderful to have you. So v e r has this fascinating story we're going on. It's been six years, I can't believe that it's been six years that you guys have been doing this amazing work through volunteer emergency relief. So in 2017, it's really interesting when we were doing kind of our meeting before the podcast to hear the details of how V E R got started. So bring us back to 2017 and Hurricane Irma and how this whole thing kind of got started.

Speaker 2 (01:04):

Well, nothing was planned right?

Speaker 1 (01:08):

It tends to be the case during hurricanes and things

Speaker 2 (01:10):

Like that. Back then, I was in the logistic business for 20 years. So we had a warehouse. We used to do pick, pack and chip for international companies. And since 2005, south Florida was not hit by a major hurricane.

Speaker 1 (01:27):

You were telling me that that's really hard to believe, especially lately. So there was a period, if you guys didn't hear that right, of 12 years where Florida had not been hit directly

Speaker 2 (01:37):

By a major. Yeah, by a major hurricane. Small ones cat one, but nothing like Ima Ima was a Cat five. Right.

Speaker 1 (01:43):

A huge, huge.

Speaker 2 (01:44):

It was huge, huge. It was actually size-wise was bigger than the state of Florida.

Speaker 1 (01:50):

I remember seeing those pictures very clearly and it actually took me back to the last time I had seen a hurricane that big, which was when Katrina was bearing down on New Orleans and it was as large as

Speaker 2 (02:00):

Humongous. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (02:01):

It's enormous. So it was a very scary time. You are there and you're thinking there are people who have lived in Florida for the last 12 years.

Speaker 2 (02:11):

I start to get phone calls from clients saying, what should I do?

Speaker 1 (02:16):

I've never been through a hurricane. Exactly. I've been here for 11, 12 years, what do I do?

Speaker 2 (02:20):

And then I realized was thousands and thousands of people that moved to South Florida during that gap of no hurricanes. So I said, you know what? I'm going to do a video on Facebook. So I actually did a live on Facebook that went viral. We had over 1.5 million people watched and the subject was, what should I do before, during, and after the hurricane? So I did that video and Gustavo Kudo, which is the other co-founder, me, my wife, Camille Marina in Gustavo,

Speaker 1 (02:52):

We know Gustavo Marina very well. Exactly. They're friends of the podcast. They have actually been guests before.

Speaker 2 (02:56):

Big hello to them. Yes, they're awesome. My partners. So Gustavo saw the VI and say, Freddy, that's a pretty good idea to educate people and it had nothing to do with my business, had nothing to do with his financial business and even my marketing guy, people are going to be confused. What are you doing talking about Hurricane and say, I got to do this. So many people passion project, it was bigger than myself. So he kept doing videos, I kept doing videos and then he say, Freddy, you have a warehouse logistic company. I know you have truck vans say, well, Gustavo, I'm actually selling the company. So I already, I don't have trucks anymore.

Speaker 1 (03:35):

Don't have those trucks anymore.

Speaker 2 (03:36):

So I leave my office and my office is across the street from a U-Haul parking lot. So I see one truck in the parking lot. I went in and I rented. So I called Gustav and say, Hey, I got the truck. I say, really? I say, yeah, I rented. So let's wait for the hurricane to pass and then we'll see what we can do. So we start promoting that saying, Hey guys, if your house is not affected by the hurricane, we want to meet. And a lot of people asking us, how can I help? Say, okay, let's do this. Let's

Speaker 1 (04:08):

From this viral video that over a million people saw,

Speaker 2 (04:10):

Let's meet in front of this local church in Boca Raton. Say, perfect. So what day? Okay, we wait for the car field to get clear and then we'll meet there. Check your house. If you have electricity, you have everything in place, which is one of the things that we tell everybody that's going to come and work with us. You got to make sure your family's safe, then you can leave to go help. So we meet in front of this church, 1:00 PM me and Gustavo on the truck. I pick him up at his house and one o'clock, two o'clock and a lot of people showed up. Gustavo was a lot. I was the people, a lot of people. Only the two of us there.

Speaker 1 (04:51):

Two of you. Okay. So now you're looking at each other being like,

Speaker 2 (04:54):

What are we going to do?

Speaker 1 (04:55):

What we do now?

Speaker 2 (04:56):

Well, we do two of us. Well, I got some case of water in my house. Well, me too. We stuck up on water, said, why don't we just put on the truck, let's drive around, let's go south. Because Broward didn't get hit that bad. But going towards to the shore and going south towards Fort Laulau day, got a lot of flooding in there. So I said, let's just go and see whoever needs help. Maybe we'll help clean up a tree. So we drove

Speaker 1 (05:23):

First, we have the truck, we have me and you. Let's go. Let's go help some peoples.

Speaker 2 (05:26):

Come on. And I'm so excited to do this. I've done that. My first volunteer work was going to the line at World Trade Center. I was in Manhattan when the World Trade Center came down. And I was right on the next day by the water there on the river. I was like three hours on the line trying to become a volunteer. And they say now we have enough. So that was actually the first time that I put myself into become a volunteer here. Oh my gosh. And I've been doing this since hurricane 2004. Say, Gustavo, trust me, there is so much stuff to do out there. Let's just go. But we stopped at a local church and this place was, its official shelter. It's like a bomb shelf generator. So it had 300 people sleeping there, people that didn't have power. So went to the church.

(06:18)
So we arrived, we asked the pastor, so, hey pastor, you need any help? He said, come with me. He took us to walking freezer. Oh yeah. And he opened up, it was completely empty. He said, I have enough food for one more meal, and I don't know how long these people is going to be here. So I look at Gustavo, I told you, let's do it. So we start doing live videos. Say, Hey, we didn't donations. We need this. But we say we cannot wait for the donation to show up. So we drove about an hour to find a supermarket that had power and food in there. And then we went there with our own money. We just bought bunch of meat, rice, beans, and we brought to the church. Next day donations start to arrive. So people kept watching our video. And then we start to get phone calls from people outside, have Linea from

Speaker 1 (07:15):

F

Speaker 2 (07:15):

Financial, fabric Financial like Mike Wil and people like asking Gustavo, I want to donate money. I had a client in England from my logistic company, John, and he's like, I want to donate money, but I say, Gustavo, I'm not going to have money coming through my account, my personal account. I don't want to mess with that. And he said, yep, me too. I said, I always had this dream. It comes from my mom. We always talked about let's have a nonprofit organization. One day said, maybe this is the time are you in? And he said, a hundred percent. So we went to a local C P A and we told him, we have no money.

Speaker 1 (07:52):

We need a business right now.

Speaker 2 (07:53):

We need a business right now and we need to apply for 5 0 1 c three. And he told me, Fred, it takes a year. But because my company, we had a marketing department and I asked my team, stop. What are you doing there for our clients? I need a website, a logo. I need Facebook, Instagram. I need an online present. So we apply. We got the company open, which is pretty quick, 48 hours, and then we apply for 5 0 1 C three 15 days later, US government gave us the 5 0 1 status. 15 days. Wow. 15 days. Yeah. People don't believe. But

Speaker 1 (08:32):

If you know anything about setting up those sorts of entities, it does not take 15 days. It takes closer to

Speaker 2 (08:38):

A year. Yes.

Speaker 1 (08:39):

That's absolutely incredible. And it was because of the presence that you had built. You looked very official and plus this hurricane you were trying to help with literally a situation that was still unfolding.

Speaker 2 (08:51):

Yeah, I think was so genuine from the beginning. Me and Gustavo, we had an agreement since day one that we are not living out of vr. Eventually we do have a dream to make this into more. We've been running five, six years now with volunteers only, but we had an agreement. We make our money. You are a finance guy. I'm a logistic guy. This is going to be a hundred percent a nonprofit. Maybe some employees, but not us. So I think that it was so genuine from the beginning that that's my belief. God had that plant. Everything that we went through the hurricane, we have no explanation. How did we arrive on, I'm not going to mention the name of the singer, because for disclosure, he asked us not to, but a really famous Puerto Rican singer that owns a big jet. We are flying to Puerto Rico with boxes of food back and forth in P West. We had over five people that owns airplane calling us saying, I want to help. Wow. I mean, me and Gustav is like, how? Yeah. We believe it's God. Yeah. That's my

Speaker 1 (10:07):

Belief, dude. That's amazing. You guys have helped not only Hurricane Irma, but you've helped Dorian in The Bahamas, correct?

Speaker 2 (10:15):

Yeah. We were there 48 hours after asking people from small islands actually taking them on a boat and bringing them to safety to Marsh Harbor. That's

Speaker 1 (10:25):

Incredible. So not just with donations. In some cases, you've actually helped rescue people from dangerous situations in the wake of these hurricanes.

Speaker 2 (10:34):

Yeah. Dorian was probably one of the worst. It was a cat five, but it sat on top of Abaco. It did for 48 hours.

Speaker 1 (10:43):

It sat and churned, and I remember that

Speaker 2 (10:46):

Went on and it did not slow down. It sat as a cat five. It left as a cat 5 48 hours later. My gosh. So inside of a blender washing machine for 48 hours.

Speaker 1 (10:57):

That's incredible. It's unbelievable. You guys have done help in Haiti. I believe you already mentioned Puerto Rico, COVID. You guys were

Speaker 2 (11:09):

Helping people out. We've had 2000 people at Covid. Yep. Was a big operation too. You

Speaker 1 (11:14):

Had Hurricane Ian in Fort Myers, which was just this past year, correct? Yep.

Speaker 2 (11:19):

Ian was so far our largest longer. We were there for 60 days. And again, God showed his power. We end up cooking 10,000 meals, hot meals. Wow. Yeah. 1500 food boxes plus reconstruction. I mean, we've done so many things, so much donation that went through our operation there. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (11:45):

It's incredible to me because you are obviously a very successful and busy in your job, which is obviously a financial consultant. Gustavo Coto, same way, very, very busy guy. Not a lot of spare time, but you guys have the time to help people. What are some of the challenges that you face as far as being able to actually step away from your job and to do this passion project and help people? I mean, I guess that's one of the perks of working in your field is that you have a team that you can trust. You have established a business and you have afforded yourself this lifestyle where you can step away if you need to.

Speaker 2 (12:29):

Yeah, absolutely. Definitely the agency and the business model that we work help us a lot. We don't need to report to anyone that we are taking time off. But also we need to be responsible that how much does it cost me personally to be two months out of my job?

(12:50)
But that's again where on my belief, it's God working 2017 until that day, the month that Gustavo and myself took off was the month that Gustavo has his largest production as a personal agent so far in the industry. Incredible. And I'm in Fort Myers working two months. I'm not seeing clients at all. I get a phone call out of nowhere, God, and saying, you got this huge case that you're going to be working on it, that you're going to make enough money. You don't need to worry. I got you covered. I mean, it's like I go out on the field to work and God takes my place in my company. It does happen. But I need to watch, especially talking about myself. Just to give you an example, Fort Myers, I told my wife, we cannot get involved on this even though it's a major hurricane. I'll promise you. And I broke my promise and I told her, I said, but I will go to South Carolina. I live in Charlotte. It's a three hours drive. So remember I told you we don't, and you're

Speaker 1 (13:59):

Going the opposite way of,

Speaker 2 (14:01):

Oh yeah, but remember I told you we have this thing at VR that nobody leaves their house until you get cleared. Right.

Speaker 1 (14:08):

You have to make sure that your family and your home is secure first and then you can

Speaker 2 (14:12):

Help. Yes, it's my home, my neighbor, my city. What am I going to do down there if my city needs help? Right? Right. But if you remember the track of, oh yeah,

Speaker 1 (14:23):

It was all over the place. It was going to hit here and then No, no, it's sitting way up

Speaker 2 (14:26):

Here and it's coming through Charlotte. Right. So I'm sitting there like a lie on the cage. Cam is like, she knows me. She watching here say, I promise you not going to Fort Myers, but I will go to South Carolina. So I'm heading to South Carolina. It's three hours drive from Charlotte to where the hurricane landed. Flooding, but not much destruction. So I'm calling local churches as of today, six years later, we have an ecosystem of partners, including churches, even the agencies, F B I and all. So we got calling and people, we don't need anything. Fort Myers, fort my fort my. And I said, I'll make one more call. I'm about 30 minutes from I'm close to 95. One more phone calls. This person tell me that they don't need help. I'm going back home. So I got on the phone and I call and she said, I don't need any help.

(15:25)
And then I was under the sign for 95 South and I just got on 95 and I was like, oh, what am I? And I kept driving and the phone rang was Claudia. She said, Freddy, you guys, yeah, you guys got involved. And I said, Claudia, don't ask me. I haven't called Camille yet, but I'm on 95 going south. It was stronger than me. So she say, I knew it. I knew it. I just got a call from a local pastor. They desperate need help. I say, put me in touch with him. So he called me and I was like 11:00 AM I was going to the ways because you couldn't have the right route going there. So I had to go through back roads when you get to Florida. Sure, of course. Yeah. Everything was destroyed. And I say, pastor, my ways is saying I'm going to be by your house by midnight. I said, where are you? I say, I'm in Charlotte heading down 95. So I'll be there and we'll talk. We'll see what we can do. Then I hang up, say now I got to call Camille.

Speaker 1 (16:31):

Camille, you promised that you were not going to go down to Florida.

Speaker 2 (16:34):

She was not happy. But couple weeks into the operation, she was like, of

Speaker 1 (16:39):

Course

Speaker 2 (16:40):

It was God sending you there. I mean, what we were doing down there was blowing our minds and make the story short, we had a camp. We had over 200 volunteers went through. We had rv. Gustavo called me and said, Freddy, I want an rv. Where are you sleeping? Said I'm sleeping on the church floor. Said, come on. So he sent me the rv. So we get trucks. I mean the operation just kept growing

Speaker 1 (17:08):

And it was awesome. You slept it in that RV for how long?

Speaker 2 (17:11):

Two months. Two

Speaker 1 (17:12):

Months. Two months. You're down

Speaker 2 (17:14):

In Florida. Never went on a trip on rv. I always liked the idea, but how busy we are to get on an RV and park, man, two months. And now I became an expert and I told Camille, we're going to go on an RV trip now I know everything. How to do the water, the heating. That's amazing. It's pretty fun. And his RV is nice. Thank you. Gustavo.

Speaker 1 (17:39):

They did you a solid there. Better than the floor of the church for sure. Oh, for sure. So how do you explain this, the way that you've been talking and telling these, it's a compulsion almost to help. You actually described it as I was like a lion in a cage pacing back and forth to go help people in a disaster area where there's no running water, there's no electricity. How do you explain what that feeling is and where it comes from?

Speaker 2 (18:11):

A hundred percent sure its purpose. My nickname was Freddy, the hurricane, because I'm always so active. I'm talkative. I like to interact with people. So I was little and an of mine used to call me. He comes Freddy, the hurricane in Portuguese. And I grew up fascinated about natural disaster like volcanoes and even flooding and it's no fame. I mean I hate what the tragedy brings to people, but I love to see that on nature. So America meal and one day we having this major snow storm in Pennsylvania. We live close to the mountains. So I get the news that the river is floating and blocks of ice. I got to go, where are you going? Say, I know a place that sits over the river. I'm just going to go there. Come with me. So we go there, I park the truck and I'm watching the river just blocks of ice.

(19:13)
And she's like, this guy's not right. This guy's not right. Are we going to stay here? And I'm like, yeah, you want, I'll take you home and I'll come back. I don't know, I had this passion. So I've been through the World Trade Center. I was there, I think it was a calling because even the operations that we run, when it's over and I go back and I look at the videos that I recorded, the pictures and everything that we do, I'm like, oh my God. It's like, take me to a different stage, mind stage. And I'm laser focused.

Speaker 1 (19:50):

You're in your element. It's like what you were put on earth to do.

Speaker 2 (19:54):

And I'm on the flow, the ideas that comes to my business when I'm there, I truly believe you got to have a sense of urgency on your company to get things done if you always on a country club mode. So I bring that to the business and Gustavo was there with me and Mar in a couple days and I'm just like, guys, we need to do this. And you talk to Gustavo, he say, Freddy, I got majority of my actions after hurricane 2017. I came from the operation and I say, if I apply this on my business, it's like you got to think in a million of seconds. Sometimes you don't have time to process. And sometimes what is low? Yes, we need preparation, we need all this. But if you don't put into action, nothing's going to happen. Hurricane, you got to act, act, act. You act. Then you think, right?

Speaker 1 (20:54):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (20:55):

That's

Speaker 1 (20:55):

Incredible. Yeah, it's really fascinating. So v e r, if there's a disaster, Fred Martins is going to be there. V e r is going to be there.

Speaker 2 (21:07):

I got a call from a Turkish friend last night, are you guys going to get involved on the earthquake that just had? And I say, man, I would love to, but it's too far and we need to know that's what I need to manage that feeling. So I don't get involved on everything. So as of now, we are focusing if anything hits the us, especially Florida, it takes a huge ecosystem of volunteers and churches. We did in The Bahamas, we saw how hard it was. It was overseas, different jurisdiction, different country, different laws now. I mean it's on their land, right? Right. Working in for Myers was so easy because right there we could get in touch with a local sheriff department. You have a network. Right after we arrived, we found out that the workforce need food because I mean these people working, so we actually told them we can give you guys 300 meals per day.

(22:17)
So they were sending us to restrict areas to deliver fruit. It makes easier on the US land. So not every, but if it's Florida for sure. Especially now after this hurricane, we got so much of so many people involved. We have a mobile home now portable that we can just hook up our truck. It's a little house so we don't need to sleep on a church floor, especially for the first week after we arrived. Literally sometimes we need to sleep on watching the skies. So now we well prepared, we stock up for the next season. We always keep money on our bank so we can act. So hopefully it's growing. Hopefully we won't be there. Hopefully in 15 more years we don't need to act.

Speaker 1 (23:07):

Right?

Speaker 2 (23:07):

Hopefully. Well,

Speaker 1 (23:09):

The organization's growing ER is growing and there's two main ways. If anybody's watching this, how can I help Freddy and how can I help V e r help more people? There are two main ways, right? Well first of all, of course, donation of money. V e r always needs money. Correct. And you guys have always taken, and I think today you can take donations via the website. What you're really looking for are monthly contributions.

Speaker 2 (23:37):

Exactly. Yeah. Because the one way that we raise funds, it's throughout the hurricane and also doing dinner or we do cars for good cause that we have the exotic cars, but that's hard. You need to put now events and raise funds and we want to take VR to the next level. Taking us to the next level will be Brendan staff over. Okay. So we now have, the first guy working with us has a huge experience, cleverer. He used to be part of Global System Foundation for over 21 as a vp. And we sat down, we've been talking for a while. I know him for many years. We've done things together in Haiti and then we brought him over. But we sat down with Gustave and said, Hey, his paycheck we don't have, would you pay half? I'll pay half from my pocket. And he said, done.

(24:37)
So we got an agreement for one year and it was right after he came in Hurricane striked and we did what we did because we had him on board. Wow. Yeah, we built in the village in Brazil. We only built in the village in Brazil. He's there. So once you start to have the right pieces inside of the organization, you'll be able to do a lot more. But we want to be very transparent with our donors. So we have people like big shout out, I dunno if we guys going to cut, but hopefully not. Shout out to Lee and Alliance. You guys donated four houses. Of course. Four houses that we are building. We were so

Speaker 1 (25:17):

Happy to do.

Speaker 2 (25:18):

It came from you guys and I really appreciate that. But how do I deliver that house? I'm not going to be able to go to Brazil and be there seeing the construction get done. So what we looking now is to be transparent with the donor saying, listen, we are going to have overhead from now on. We ran without overhead. Our tax report is open. Anyone can call us and it's going to be there for you to see it. Sure. We now need a secretary and we need a really small office. So we have a

Speaker 1 (25:53):

Little bit of overhead now,

Speaker 2 (25:55):

A little bit

Speaker 1 (25:55):

Of overhead because you are trying to grow, you're trying to help more people.

Speaker 2 (25:59):

Let's say we come end of the year, our goal is to raise $10,000 on a monthly basis and let's say 7,000 is going to overhead. Now also CLA needs to go to Brazil. How we paying the airplane ticket? So now I need to raise funds to pay the ticket or I need to call Sam, can you help me with ticket? It's not a good position to be, right? But now with the 10,000 coming in, how much can we do with that stuff? If I have a secretary, I live an event and I have a hundred business cards, who's calling those people that wants to be part of vr? It's following up staff, right? Yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:41):

Just like your business,

Speaker 2 (26:42):

Right? I'll take you for example, you told me my wife did her master's in Chagas Disease. The area that you working, did I follow up on you on that? No,

Speaker 1 (26:54):

You did not. And I had every intention of wanting to connect you guys and then we both kind of fell apart. If you've got somebody staff that's following up on these opportunities, it's more likely to happen. Yep.

Speaker 2 (27:07):

The houses you guys donated, I think Lee got my email three months later. I mean, we close, we always in touch throughout the conventions and business, but if someone else, it gets codes. I don't have the houses, so that's why we need the staff and we need the monthly, like

Speaker 1 (27:24):

I said, the monthly donations help because it kind of gives you guys room for that overhead. Obviously when you do these fundraising events, you're able to get the push funds one time and then the next day it's dry again. So if you can build up these monthly donations, then you're able to make things like staffing additions and things like that.

Speaker 2 (27:44):

Perfect. Anything counts. We got people now donating 50 bucks. We got people donating $500 thousand dollars. We had a 1500. I'll give you the number right now. We just started about two months ago and we had 1500 in monthly. And our goal is get by December with 10,000.

Speaker 1 (28:05):

Awesome. Well, so people can reach out ve relief relief.org. Dot org and that's where they can go. You can donate and hopefully, I think by the time that everyone sees this podcast, there'll actually be an option there where you can set up those monthly donations. Yes, for sure. Which would be so huge

Speaker 2 (28:24):

For sure.

Speaker 1 (28:25):

Will to v e r.

Speaker 2 (28:26):

Yeah. Well you heard Alex saying, right? Alex, you promise.

Speaker 1 (28:30):

It's very true. Alex, you're on the hook now.

Speaker 2 (28:33):

You're on the hook now.

Speaker 1 (28:34):

So besides donations, people can also donate time, their time, and they can do that also@verelief.org. We're going to put the address here on the screen.

Speaker 2 (28:47):

That's one thing people ask, how can I help say, listen, if you follow on Instagram and you share a post 100% of our donation and our operation on anything we do, it's on social media through two platforms. One is WhatsApp that we create the groups, and the other one is Instagram. There doing lives and showing people. The minute that I stop doing the video, the operation dies. When we want to turn on the operation, we turn on the Instagram. So anyone from anywhere in the world, you can be a volunteer. Follow us on our Instagram can also put that the

Speaker 1 (29:27):

Address. Yeah, absolutely. We can put those on there as well.

Speaker 2 (29:29):

Yeah. Perfect. And once you see anything there, sometimes we do posts. You can donate here. Sometimes we also take physical stuff like Fort Myers for example. We had people donating ac, like AC unit microwaves, and we had a warehouse down there, so we gave them the address shipped down here. We deliver it so many ways.

Speaker 1 (29:53):

There's a lot of ways for people to help. You can donate money if you don't have the money to donate, you can donate your time. If you're not close enough and you can't donate your time, you can follow on Instagram and you can share these things out and help V e r raise

Speaker 2 (30:05):

Money if every time you see a VR post on Instagram, if you do and you share, you helping us, you have no idea. Because the algorithm,

Speaker 1 (30:15):

Right? Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (30:16):

Instagram sees that there is interaction here. So I tell people just like it. I mean we see so much.

Speaker 1 (30:21):

I mean it's how VR started, right? It was that viral

Speaker 2 (30:24):

Video. Hundred percent that viral video. Yeah. And it's amazing how bad stuff go viral. And

Speaker 1 (30:31):

I'm trying to make good stuff. Go viral.

Speaker 2 (30:32):

Make our video go viral.

Speaker 1 (30:35):

Fred, thank you so much for joining us. VER is truly a tremendous organization. Alliance Group is proud to do our part, to help you help more people, and hopefully this podcast will help in those efforts as

Speaker 2 (30:48):

Well. Absolutely. Thank you. Awesome. Thanks so much, man. Thank you.

Speaker 1 (30:53):

Listen to this interview and more on the Alliance Group podcast.

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